Serious issue - Sky Q juddering with 24 Hz content

[Winter1]

@Rhonny 

There is something very suspicious going on here.

Two people have mentioned that my TV is 12 years old. It is a circa £3000 Pioneer KRP-500A, widely recognised (AVForums, Home Cinema Choice, Trusted Reviews, Tech Radar to name but a few) as one of the best TVs ever produced. It is capable of 23.976, 24, 50 and 60 FPS, unlike a lot of TVs. Carry out a search and the praise is universal.

My Oppo BDP-105 is also a reference universal Blu-ray player and can also do 23.976, 24, 50 and 60 FPS. 

The real problem here is the SKY Q box and it is, to put it bluntly broken and needs a major update. It is simply not fit for purpose, as my tests and others have proved.

[mike+simmonds]

Hi @Winter1 

you say  "There is something very suspicious going on here.'

In what way suspicious ?

[Rhonny]

@Winter1

I just meant you wouldn't have the Netflix app on your TV instead because if its age, which is infinitely preferable to the Sky Q Netflix app which I agree with you isn't good enough because of the judder. I wasn't suggesting your TV was the cause of any judder. 

[Jong99]

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@Winter1 wrote:

The solution is for SKY to engineer a mode to allow for 23.976, 24, 50 or 60 FPS. i.e. all standards.

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I think the issue is that switching display mode - either resolution or frame rate - causes screen blanking and sometimes flashes of noise for several seconds. Maybe this will be fixed in a few years when we all have HDMI 2.1 devices, but that is for the future.

For most average consumers, who care very little for this stuff, that flashing will be more of an irritation than unperceived judder and will lead to a lot of support calls for a provider of a mass market set top box like Sky Q.

It's true they could provide a setting for advanced users, as Apple do with their "Match Frame Rate" option, but that is pretty rare on this class of device and, although I'd personally like it, along with an "auto switch resolution" Mode so my TV can do HD -> 4K upscaling instead of Sky Q, I'm not that surprised they don't.

In the meantime, getting an alternate device, like Apple TV, for Netflix and other streaming services, works really well. We can benefit from the Sky/Netflix(/Disney+) pricing but still watch in all their glory. For me that also means watching with HDR, which Sky Q also does not support at this time.

[TimmyBGood]

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@Winter1 wrote:

The real problem here is the SKY Q box and it is, to put it bluntly broken and needs a major update. It is simply not fit for purpose, as my tests and others have proved.

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Not fit for your purpose: there's something of a distinction.  Fairly unlikely a 'major update' will appear to suit your particular desires if millions of other subscribers aren't noticing any such issue.

[MikeM18]

Have you tried adjusting the judder reduction setting from the audio visual menu? This may provide some improvement.

[Winter1 · Accepted solution]

@MikeM18 

I tried the judder reduction setting.

Using my HD Fury Linker device, I tested the Sky Q box with the judder reduction in its 'on' and 'off' setting.

My results are:

Off: @ 50Hz

On: @ 60Hz

The issue is that many (most) of the Netflix streams appear to be at 23.976 / 24 FPS and this causes the judder and both these frequencies.

I'm not sure how the other millions of subscribers can't see the juddering but I have found a solution:

I purchased a Nvidia Shield 4k TV and this allows every conceivable option (including 23.976/24 FPS) and this results in a judder free experience for Netflix.

[Jonathan+Kaye]

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I'm not sure how the other millions of subscribers can't see the juddering

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A lot of people don't notice 2:3 pulldown, the 24fps -> 60Hz (or technically, 23.976fps -> 59.94Hz) juddering you're describing, unless it's pointed out to them. It's something that's been around for decades, like PAL speedup when 24fps films are sped up to 25fps for our 50Hz TV system.

Others (like me) notice both, which is why we seek out solutions that negate those. Equally, some people can't stand the 24fps film look and want their image motion all smooth and 50/60Hz-like, so turn on all the image processing that the likes of us turn off or down to minimal to preserve that film look.

Each to their own.😊

[Winter1]

@Jonathan+Kaye 

I suspect that these same people think that MP3 is acceptable (rather than using high resolution FLAC files for music), and it is normal to have audio drop outs on Dolby Digital streams (also a classic Sky trait).

I call for Sky to let their Sky subscription available to other hadrware suppliers that know what they are doing (akin to what Netflix do), so that it simply works (or fixed promptly).

[Jong99]

As I said earlier @Winter1 , This is not a bug. It is a conscious decision by Sky that minimises complaints. I am sure more will complain about screen blanking during refresh rate switches than are bothered by, or even notice, periodic judder, much as I hate it myself.

Anyway, I'm glad you have found a solution that satisfies your needs. I'll be interested in your experience of the Nvidia Shield after a few weeks/months. I've been tempted myself, now the Pro supports Dolby Vision.

[Winter1]

@Jong99 

I briefly looked at the ATV as-well but having purchased a few Apple products over the years, I have been frustrated by the lack of keeping standards open (FLAC vs ALAC (also iTunes not supporting FLAC is criminal!), USB-C vs Lightning etc), so going to a company who traditionally makes open standard PC products (Nvidia) is a real positive.

My first impressions of the Nvidia Shield 4k TV are great and it gives the user very good control over what is happening and seems to cater for the enthusiast:-)

[mike+simmonds]

Hi @Winter1 

A belated apology from me. The screen in my photo is actually my other Pioneer PDP 435 !

The 500a went to my son.  Only just realised 😅

hope you are doing ok 

[Winter1]

@mike+simmonds 

It's okay Mike.

I'm really pleased with my upgrade to the Nvidia Shield 4k TV as it is doing everything I ask (I only use Sky Q for playing Sky TV on now and even the Sky Q router is used as a modem only) - the Nvidia Shield has clearly been designed for an AV enthusiast and a caveat is that, I feel some of the apps such as Kodi and the like have got pretty advanced settings and you need to know what you are doing. I don't think it is a plug and play device but impressive nevertheless. 9/10.

[Petruchio]

Interesting thread folks.

Is there any reason why Sky Q can't support 24fps on streaming/downloaded content? 

I understand the 50hz need for "live" channels, but for streamed and downloaded content this seems like something they should offer. Is it a hardware issue or could this be solved in a firmware update (if Sky decided to)? One of the main reasons I don't buy/rent movies from Sky Store is the lack of 24fps support. 

[StuN]

I have a Samsung Q900r & get the exact same thing. Yes, I can use the Netflix TV app but that makes the Sky Q app pretty pointless.